Jonathan the link you posted isn't really an appropriate response to my opening post as it doesn't speak of what John 20:28 says in the original Greek text which is what I based my entire post on.
Blue Grass
JoinedPosts by Blue Grass
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41
John 20:28 response to Garyneal
by Blue Grass in(the cake is the object of the verb 'bake'.).
(the cat is the object of the verb 'bark'.).
everywhere else in the new testament when jesus is directly addressed as lord it is always in the vocative case.
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41
John 20:28 response to Garyneal
by Blue Grass in(the cake is the object of the verb 'bake'.).
(the cat is the object of the verb 'bark'.).
everywhere else in the new testament when jesus is directly addressed as lord it is always in the vocative case.
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Blue Grass
According to that, Thomas wasn't addressing Lord Jesus, but Lord Jehovah. Did I understand it correctly?
No Thomas isn't addressing anyone in this verse. By saying "my Lord and my God" Thomas is now acknowledging after his previous disbelief that his Lord Jesus has been resurrected by his God. Before seeing Jesus Thomas didn't believe his Lord was alive but when he finally sees him alive he acknowledges him and he acknowledges the power of God with the phrase "my Lord and my God".
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Immortal Soul? Impossible!
by wannabe inimpossible!.
we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.
the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.
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Blue Grass
My darling Blue Grass dumbass, you do not know anything regarding ashkenazi or sephardic.
I know all about ashkenazi and sephardic Jews. I know that vast majority of Jews living in Palestine Israel are fake ashkenazis and that Jews who died in the holocaust were fake ashkenazi Jews. Also the Bible itself puts to rest the myth of ashkenazi having any relation to Jews in the Bible:
Genesis 10:2The sons of Japheth:Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras.3The sons of Gomer:Ashkenaz, Riphath and Togarmah.
As we all know the Jews came from Shem through Abraham and Jacob. Ashkenazis come from Japheth through Gomer. Two totally different groups of people and nations. You ashkenazis come from Japheth, the man who fathered all the European nations. There's nothing semitic(Shem) about ashkenzais.
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114
Immortal Soul? Impossible!
by wannabe inimpossible!.
we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.
the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.
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Blue Grass
All that matters to me is I have a certificate signed by 3 rabbis stating for the entire world that I am Jewish; I am entitled for citizenship in Israel if I want it;
Sorry Robdar, but having three Europeans with no connection to the Middle East giving you a piece of paper saying your a Jew means nothing. Also you can go live in Palestine Israel not because of that piece of paper but because a bunch of Euros from Germany, Austria, Poland, the Baltic, Hungary, Ukraine, Romania, Russia, etc. came to the middle east and killed a bunch of Innocent people and literally stole there homes. That's why you can go live in Palestine Israel.
So Blue Grass-----do you have a rebuttal for any of the scriptures we've presented to you?
Actually I haven't seen many post that was worth responding to as most of what you guys post needs no rebuttal. But concerning Heb 4:12 the soul is the body and the spirit is what gives it life. I see no contradiction there. I'm not saying people don't have spirits, I'm saying our spirits aren't conscious or immortal.
P.S Thanks snowbird!
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John 20:28 response to Garyneal
by Blue Grass in(the cake is the object of the verb 'bake'.).
(the cat is the object of the verb 'bark'.).
everywhere else in the new testament when jesus is directly addressed as lord it is always in the vocative case.
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Blue Grass
This thread is a response to a comment garyneal made on another thread in which he said:
"Ask them to explain John 20:28, 'Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"' I would be real interested in what their response is.You see, in the Greek the text is definitive and is totally unanswerable. This is because the word theos is preceded by the definite article ho where Thomas says THE GOD OF ME to Jesus. The literal translation is, "The Lord of me and the God of me." "
I started to respond on the thread this comment was originally made but I didn't want to hijack that thread and I feel this topic deserves it's own thread.
In a nutshell Greek has four cases when it comes to nouns:Nominative, Genitive, Accusative, and Vocative.The Nominative case marks the subject of a verb(a noun performing an action), the Genitive case marks a noun as being the possessor of another noun(i.e The man's hat.), the accusative marks the object of the verb(a noun affected by a verb), and the Vocative case is used when a noun is being directly addressed. Here some examples of these cases in English:
Nominative:The girl baked a cake. (Here girl is the nominative because she performs the act of baking)
The dog barked at the cat. (Here the dog is the one barking.)
Genitive:Have you ever been to Dave's house? (Dave owns the house.)
Have you seen John's new car?(John owns the car)
Accusative:The girl baked a cake.(The cake is the object of the verb 'bake'.)
The dog barked at the cat.(The cat is the object of the verb 'bark'.)
Vocative:Hey Mike! Where are you going?(Mike is being directly addressed.)
Nice to see you again Bob.(Bob is being directly addressed.)
In Greek a masculine noun such as Κυριος (Lord) is spelled differently in each of the 4 cases and the definite article(Ο) is different in the first 3 cases while no definite article is used for the Vocative:
Nominative: Ο Κυριος
Genitive: Του Κυριου
Accusative: Τον Κυριο
Vocative: Κυριε
Now let's take a look at John 20:28 in the Greek text:
28 και απεκριθη Θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο Κυριος μου και ο Θεος μου.
As you can see both Κυριος(Lord) and Θεος(God) are in the nominative and not in the vocative. If Thomas was directly addressing Jesus rather than speaking about Jesus than there would of been no definite articles in front of Lord and God and both words would of been spelled differently. Everywhere else in the New Testament when Jesus is directly addressed as Lord it is always in the Vocative case. This would be the only verse in the entire New Testament where Jesus would be addressed as Lord in the Nominative case.
Of course I didn't go into great detail here because I'm trying to make things as simple as possible, but if anyone else with knowledge of the Greek language have anything to add that will be greatly appreciated.
A few links for those who would to verify this information:
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/nouns1.htm
http://mkatz.web.wesleyan.edu/grk101/linked_pages/grk101.grklanguage.html#cases?
http://faculty.fairfield.edu/rosivach/greekgrammar/noun-case.htm
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114
Immortal Soul? Impossible!
by wannabe inimpossible!.
we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.
the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.
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Blue Grass
You hear that Robdar? You're not really a Jew according to shit-for-brains Blue Grass. Why? Because he says so.
It's not because I say so but because that genological records were used to establish if someone was a Jew or not:
Ezekiel 13:9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel.
Nehemiah 7:63 And from among the priests: the descendants of Hobaiah, Hakkoz and Barzillai (a man who had married a daughter of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by that name). 64 These searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean.
Ezra 2:61 And from among the priests:The descendants of Hobaiah, Hakkoz and Barzillai (a man who had married a daughter of Barzillai the Gileadite and was called by that name).62These searched for their family records, but they could not find them and so were excluded from the priesthood as unclean.
2 Chronicles 31: 16 In addition, they distributed to the males three years old or more whose names were in the genealogical records—all who would enter the temple of the LORD to perform the daily duties of their various tasks, according to their responsibilities and their divisions. 17 And they distributed to the priests enrolled by their families in the genealogical records and likewise to the Levites twenty years old or more, according to their responsibilities and their divisions. 18 They included all the little ones, the wives, and the sons and daughters of the whole community listed in these genealogical records. For they were faithful in consecrating themselves.
Also see Numbers 1:20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42; Exodus 6:16 & 19
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Frustrated with JW Bible study!
by ElizabethTravers ini am new 2 this forum.. i have been meeting up with 2 jw ladies on a weekly basis.
it has all been "polite".
today we covered a bit of the trinity.. i had read rhodes book on reasoning from the scriptures with jw's, but i found almost all my arguments that i used, in terms of every bible verse we went through (or i attempted to go through with them) went pear shape!
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Blue Grass
Garyneal says "You see, in the Greek the text is definitive and is totally unanswerable." Completely false! As a matter of fact the opposite is true. The Greek text makes it clear that Thomas is not calling Jesus Lord or God in this verse. In greek that are 4 cases, two of which are the Nominative Case(talking about someone) and Vocative Case(talking to someone). When Thomas says "Lord" and "God" they both appear in the Nominative case which mean Thomas was talking about his Lord and God, not talking to them. Here's a link with a very simple explanation on the different cases in Greek: http://www.kypros.org/LearnGreek/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=61
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114
Immortal Soul? Impossible!
by wannabe inimpossible!.
we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.
the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.
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Blue Grass
Leolaia those are some horrible examples. Overlooking the fact that you just posted a bunch of isolated verses unrelated to each other, the verses you posted have nothing to say about an afterlife:
Judges 2:10 "After that whole generation had been gathered to their fathers, another generation grew up, who knew neither the LORD nor what he had done for Israel."
This verse is speaking of a burial not of a conscious afterlife. This is exactly what we saw with Jacob when he lived in Egypt.
Genesis 47: 28 Jacob lived in Egypt seventeen years, and the years of his life were a hundred and forty-seven. 29 When the time drew near for Israel to die, he called for his son Joseph and said to him, "If I have found favor in your eyes, put your hand under my thigh and promise that you will show me kindness and faithfulness. Do not bury me in Egypt, 30 but when I rest with my fathers, carry me out of Egypt and bury me where they are buried."
As you can see Judges is saying when one generation died off and was buried with their fathers. This same principle also applies to 1 Kings 2:10 11:43, 13:22, 14:31, and 15:8.
Psalm 30:2-3, 49:14-19, 22:28-29, and 86:13 are references to a resurrection which is very different from an afterlife.
Do the Jews of the Bible include the first-century Pharisees?
No it doesn't because Jesus makes it clear throughout the New Testament that the Jews of the first century beliefs were perverted and they didn't follow the teaches that have been passed down from Moses.
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Immortal Soul? Impossible!
by wannabe inimpossible!.
we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.
the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.
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Blue Grass
Robdar says "Blue Grass, I am concerned that you might have a mistaken notion that Jews do not believe in an afterlife or that we regard Sheol as only a pit or grave."
I was reffering to the Jews as how their beliefs and pratices are recoreded in the Bible. It appears based on your wording that you believe you are a Jew but I would like to point out that the indivuals who died in the holocaust, invaded Palestine, and migrated to United States are Europeans and do not come from the middle east. Also in the Bible one would have to present genologicial records to prove he was a descendant of Jacob in order to be considered a jew. Even though you may praticed a form of modern Judaism you don't have any relation to the Jews in the Bible hence you have no special knowledge of the topic at hand as you tried to imply.
Leolaia can you share an example of a notion of an afterlife(not ressurection) in the OT?
P.S How do I quote people with that yellow box?
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114
Immortal Soul? Impossible!
by wannabe inimpossible!.
we notice, paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all mankind through the process of inheritance.
the reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind.
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Blue Grass
Mary says "I sincerely doubt I would. Sheol is accepted as a spirit world by numerous professionals who have spent years and decades studying ancient languages. Need a couple of examples?"
I'm not sure why you posted the first 3 examples as none of them state Sheol as being a prison for spirits as you claimed in an earlier post nor do they claim Sheol to be a place of consciousness. The last example you posted based on it's title appears to be a proganda piece promoting the idea of life after death.
Mary says "Sheol most certainly can mean "grave" or "pit", but as has already been demonstrated, it is also used in describing the afterlife throughout the scriptures."
Completely false! Where does the word Sheol ever mean afterlife in the Bible? The word Sheol is used 65 time in the Bible. Of the 65 times it's used, I would like for you to just show me ONE scripture in the entire Old Testament where the word Sheol in used in any other way other than the grave/pit. Sheol never met anything close to an afterlife nor is it ever used that way.
Mary Says "I did not take anything "out of context". I made mention of 1 Peter 3:19 as an example of the scriptural idea of life after death and that's it. There is no clear consensus amongst scholars or theologians as to who it's referring to. "
Are you kidding me? It says Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." You think these spirits are/were human? Why would only the people from Noah's day be in prison? Why not the people of Sodom and Gomorrah or the people of Abraham's day or Moses' day or King David's day etc.? Trying to rationalize the spirits who "sinned in Noah's day" as being former humans makes no sense. Especially when you consider that Angels(spirits) commited a sin in Noah's day that wasn't commited in anyone else's day and taht they ultimately went to a prison(Tartarus) for it.
Mary says "Another case of you misplaced smug attitude. Leolaia is by far, the most intelligent poster we have on here."
Well actually me and Leolaia are in agreement in the fact that the Book of Revelation wasn't written by John or any of Jesus' followes and that it doesn't harmonize with the rest of the Bible so I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.